What's In It For The Audience? With Traci DeForge

Most podcasters think that they need $10,000 to make money. But what if I told you that's a myth and you could start monetizing with just 1500 listeners? Well, that's what Tracy DeForge is here to explain.Hit it, ladies. The school of Podcasting with Dave Jackson. Podcasting since 2005.I'm your award winning hall of fame podcast coach, Dave Jackson, thanking you so much for tuning in. If you're new to the show, this is where I help you plan, launch and grow your podcast.If you want to monetize, I can help with that too, and so can Tracy. That's what we were talking about.My website is schoolofpodcasting.com use the coupon code listener when you sign up for either a monthly, quarterly or yearly subscription. And of course that comes with a 30, 30 day money back guarantee.Tracy Deforge has been in media really for 30 years, going back to her days on being on the radio out in LA.She's probably best known for producerpodcast.com but she's worked with Fortune 500 companies, she's worked with major media outlets, and she is a person that I with love and respect refer to as a big shot smarty pants. And, and so when I brought her on, I really wanted to tap into her knowledge of using a podcast with a business.I've been getting a lot of questions about that and so I asked her about that and asked, where do you start?

Well, I am definitely going to start with the strategy and I am going to look at everything through the lens of business development because I don't know that I'm a big shot, but I am a smarty pants when it comes to business development strategy.And what I find that a lot of people get excited about the idea of starting a podcast, but they, they don't really necessarily look at the whole picture, 360 degrees of how it integrates into their business model, their business, and also even their time, energy and bandwidth. Right. Because there's so many people out there saying you should do this and you should release this many times and you should do this many things.And the reality is is you've got to do what's right for you to make it sustainable.And you have to create a podcast that's engaging, that's edu, that provides education and that is set up foundational to convert people to continue that conversation with you once they have consumed your content. So there's so much more to it than just what kind of mic do I get or or where am I going to record? Or how many times am I going to release?You really want to start with why? Why the podcast? And then what do you want the podcast to do? To serve? How are you going to leverage that podcast for business growth?Those are the first two things I would talk about. No doubt.

I love that. And the fact that before you even start monetizing, I always say, you don't monetize a podcast, you monetize an audience.So for the new person that may not have enough of an audience to monetize, what are your strategies for that?

One of the things that I would talk about first is I would look at how is your podcast fitting into the rest of your business model. Again, a conversation people don't have frequently enough. You can't silo off your podcast and expect it to grow and thrive.And you'd be surprised at the things that I see. I, I, we were working with a client and they kept saying, I just, my, my audience isn't growing, my audience isn't growing.But my webinars, man, they're on fire.And I'm like, okay, so they have a webinar marketing strategy that has, you know, a funnel with opt ins and they're having like, each email is triggering another email. It's triggering, you know, the whole system that everybody does for webinars.Not once in any of this visibility are they telling this other audience that they're cultivating, creating and growing that, oh, by the way, we have a podcast. They weren't thinking of it outside of just, I release it, I posted on social media, I record it, I release it, I posted on social media.It's like, no, it's just not enough anymore.Like, you have to think about every area that you touch a potential client, even down to we were talking with a, one of our clients, Crazy wealthy podcast. Again, very niche focused podcast, very high assets under management. Like really using their podcast in a very specific way to educate clients.They take qr, you know, cards to golf tournaments, or they'll host a golf tournament for their clients and they'll put the, the podcast QR code on whatever that they end up putting out there. If you're speaking at an event, make sure it's, you know, ask people in the audience, okay, I have a podcast.If you've had fun with me on stage today, get out your, get out your smartphone right now. Go to the platform where you listen or watch your podcast and find my podcast. Like you, you just have to think about it in everything that you do.And you have to literally eat, breathe and sleep it. Not literally, but it's just so easy to think of it as a wash once, repeat. And it's just not. It's just not at all.

Absolutely. When I travel, I always wear a school of podcasting T shirt. And when I'm on stage, depending on the situation, I'm often wearing a podpage T shirt.Because you always want to be promoting and a lot of us have problems with that. We kind of have a. We feel salesy and makes us feel weird. So how do you handle that?

How you feel about sales is a mindset issue that you really need to overcome even before you get behind the mic, because that is something that you can customize and personalize in your own way. And what feels salesy to you might not feel salesy to someone else, but you've got to be comfortable and confident about it.I think that's one of the things that people don't talk about enough. Like, I can give you a very.And we can outline some really strategic ways to drop in calls to action, but it really starts first with your comfort level and communicating that call to action.So when I'm working with clients and strategy, what I like to say is, you know, you're responsible for the energy that you bring to the mic, what excites you to talk about and then taking that into a warm invitation.Because I think if you get your mind around the fact that you having a conversation about your business, you showcasing clients, if that's appropriate for your business model, if you're talking about your products and services, like what fires you up about it? What do you know you do well? What do you know that your product or your service, how does it transform people? What's the journey around that?And if you can tell it and be storytelling about it or get excited about it, then that's. That energy is contagious.

All right, I'm going to jump in here. If you didn't notice, Tracy just did one.She didn't say, come hire me, but she did say, when I'm working with clients, that's a very polite way of just letting the audience know I do consulting. How about calls to action?

Think of it as if you were having a one on one conversation. Because most people are listening to their podcast. If they're listening, they're listening with it, with earbuds.It's a very intimate relationship that you're building. So just think about, I'm asking one person to do one thing and I think that lowers the. The Stress around feeling salesy.But nobody wants an infomercial. So you need to have strategy around your content, you need to have strategy around your podcast. But you've got to start with how you feel about it.

And I realize that, you know, for the person that wants to make money with their podcast, you got to learn how to sell, because you're either selling your stuff or you're selling somebody else's stuff. And a great book. It's an old classic, but man, it's good. Secrets of Closing the Sale by Zig Ziglar will help you get your mind around.You're not selling, you're helping. And one of the things, for years everybody was into the whole you have to tell your story. So I want to ask Tracy about that.

If you're an accountant, who is going to tell your story about how you got into the finance business, is that going to be super transformative to somebody who wants to then hire you to do their books or do their taxes?I mean, maybe they want to get to know you, but they probably want to know more about what kind of innovative new way or how do you take the load off of them or what's in it for them, basically.And I think that no matter Whether it's your first episode or your 100th episode or your 1000th episode, you have to enter into every piece of content that you create with what's in it for your audience and not what's in it for you. Because your story might be interesting, it might be a game changing story story.But if it's not something that is going to ultimately benefit or bring value to your customer or your client, is it necessary? You know, I don't know.

Oh, I do. I think it's really unnecessary. Think about it again, My criteria. Does it make it laugh?Does it make you laugh, cry, think grown, educate or entertain? And in most cases it doesn't. And for the love of God, don't read your LinkedIn bio. That's as dry as yesterday's toast.But you can work in calls to action. It doesn't have to be at the end.

So it's just being mindful and starting to place that deliberately into conversations throughout the episode. I think a lot of times it's a myth that you have to wait till the end to have the call to action.But a call to action can be dropped in if you're transitioning into a special segment, if you're opening the show talking about the school of podcasting, if you're, you know, all of these are different ways that you can connect with your audience so that they understand what it is that you do.

So you'll notice that last week I said, I'm no longer interrupting interviews to put in a call to action. That's something I just chose.I find it's a little too disruptive, which I realize is kind of good from a marketing standpoint, but not so great from an experience standpoint. But in the end, you have to let them know what it is you do.When I was in Chicago last week, they said, you are a brand, you're not a podcast, and you want to be known for whatever it is you do. You'll notice that I occasionally throw in, my name is Dave Jackson. I help podcasters. It's what I do.So when somebody goes, I need help with my podcast, you'll go, oh, I know a guy named Dave Jackson. You have to let people know what you do.

This is the perfect time for an honest, like, true story about a client we had who does seven figure business consulting. She'd been podcasting for over three years, consistently showing up like, you know, recording her podcast.She came to work with us because her show wasn't growing, her business wasn't growing quite as well as she was hoping that it would.We tweaked the way she did her intro so that she was explaining that this was her podcast and the result, the reason she was doing this podcast is because she offered these services to people who wanted to be seven figure entrepreneurs. The first episode after she tweaked her intro, she closed a five figure client on coaching services.But the most important part of the story is that the person who she closed said to her, I've been listening to your podcast for years and I didn't know how you could help me. That is, for years, this person, I didn't know how you could help me.Now, there's nothing salesy about that person genuinely wanted to understand because she liked the host, she liked the content, she liked the show. Clearly she kept showing up and was finding some value from it, but she couldn't connect the dots.The host wasn't building the bridge between the podcast conversations and how she could help a client. And when she did that one time, five figures in revenue. So it's really just not my opinion. It's really truly very important.

But I know you may be thinking, but I don't believe. I mean, I've been doing this for a couple years. I'm not sure if I have enough downloads.If my audience, if my reach is big, Enough to look for sponsorships and partnerships.

I think there's just this huge myth that you can't monetize your show unless you have 10,000 downloads per episode or more. You and I both know most cases are even 1500 or less or 1000 or less. And so is that still possible for monetization? Absolutely. Absolutely it is.What you have to think about are a couple of things. One is what are you doing in your business in addition to your podcast? So it might seem like a no brainer, but a lot of times that gets overlooked.So have you been blogging for years before you started your podcast? Do you have a robust social media on at least one channel? Do you have a consistent newsletter that you've been sending out monthly or weekly?Do you show up at community events? Are you a speaker? Have you published a book?Like the first, first thing that you want to think about is what are the multiple ways that a brand, if they were to align with you and work with you, what are the multi omnichannel fancy pants sprays? But what are the multiple reasons and touch points that you can reach an audience that that brand can be connected with?That's your first thing that you want to look at and figure out. And then the second thing is, is like start looking at your own products and services as your first sponsor.I like to tell people your podcast is oceanfront real estate. So start using it first to even let people know that you want sponsorships.One of the things that we talk a lot about at Producer Podcast is bringing in what's called the Powered by sponsor. And the Powered by sponsor is a really great way. It's how you open your show.You know, it is the growth accelerator podcast, Powered by Producer Podcasts. I mean, I'm using that example because that's ours.But it could be powered by shure mics, it could be powered by, you know, mailchimp, it could be powered by anybody. Right? But the, the way that you can do that is that's not taking inventory. It's not a 60 or 90 second long live read.It's just a way to announce to your audience and have your brand affiliated with you and your show out of the gate. And that's something that people could charge $250 for $25,000 for, depending on how many people that they're reaching off of it.But it's an, it's for somebody who isn't in like eating, breathing and sleeping the sponsorship and brand advertising world. It's a really easy thing to, to get your brain around.And the second thing is create a signature piece of content that you can put a sponsor adjacent to inside your podcast. So that could be tips, that could be takeaways, that could be, I mean, we have a funny podcast, the fans first, it's a sports podcast.They have a special segment called get off my Lawn and it has a funny, you know, curmudgeony character, you know, get my lawn. And then it's a fan rant.And so that's such an easily sponsored feature and it's a fun production element for your audience and you can drop a sponsor adjacent to that. So you just have to think about like, what are the easiest low hanging fruit from the production perspective that I could deliver consistently.Then you have to look at your inner network first. This is the piece that people underestimate all of the time. They, they really overestimate the number of people that know what it is that they do.But most of the time people will underestimate the number of people they know.So you have to think about church, your ball field, you know, who you, who's, you know, your wife or your husband's friends that own businesses and who, who are people that would want to be aligned with my types of content or the vendors that you've been doing business with for years. We had a interior design podcast. They had been in business for over a decade when they started their show.They had a 10 year history of buying wallpaper and paint and faucets from Kohler. And you know, these are long term relationships. They already know the quality of this, these women, the quality of their work.So when they started a podcast, it was a natural conversation to go back to a brand like Kohler and say, hey, we started a podcast and we've already been blogging, we've already had really great website traffic. We've already been, you know, really consistent with our social. Do you want to be involved in our podcast? It was not just a yes, it was a hell yes.And so they monetized really quickly out of the gate. And I think it's just people not realizing that they can ask first.Like, I think if anybody takes anything away from this episode today, hopefully they'll take away the. You don't get it if you don't ask, but it, but when you ask, they may say no, but you're going to get data.And so then you can take that data into the next conversation. And it's just about having a conversation. It's so intimidating sometimes because I don't sell ads.I don't know anything about selling ads, but you know how to talk about your business and you know how to talk about how you're transforming your audience by them listening and consuming your content and who doesn't want to be a part of that.

Right, Exactly. And one of the hardest things is, well, what do I charge has to.

Be valued based on what are the things that you can do for them. So are you going to add links and logos in your show notes again?Coming back to being able to look at the podcast is the hub of the content strategy where they will get visibility. But if you're going to get into bigger numbers, you're going to be able to look at the podcast plus and plus the other visibility and touch points.You also have to think about like what kind of numbers like with any kind of budget or business profitability or any kind of forecasting you would do like anything else, you want to do that for your podcast too. So a lot of times people will say I would be glad if I just got with my production costs covered. So I have no idea what anyone's production cost.You only know what your production costs. Unless you're working with us, then I do know what your production costs are. But if that's where your barometer is like is that your baseline?So okay, well I want to build packages that are going to cover my cost of my production plus my time and maybe 10%. And so you figure out for I like easy math. So let's say that's $5,000.And then you want to back into it from there and say okay, so I could do a powered by, I could do a special sponsor, I could have a founder or CEO on my podcast, which is not pay to play. It's just building that visibility piece into your package. Maybe you release that episode on separate day, not in your regular cadence.And so you start to layer up what these packages look like. But you have to have a number that you want to meet a goal, an objective like I want to cover my costs. This is what my costs are.So I need this plus and then you just start building the packages.And it's not that it's a willy nilly type of thing, but you it's really depending on the value you're going to bring to them and the type of business it is too.Because a high ticket coach with 350 highly like really engaged people and you want to talk about project management systems or you want to talk about bookkeeping services or you want to talk like that is a You don't need a lot of people to convert somebody to a project management system or to convert, you know, you just, you don't need that many people. So you have to talk about it that way too.

And you got to remember when she says you don't have to have that many people, those are people that are engaged.So we're talking the difference between having 500 people that were hanging on every word versus 50,000 people that tuned in and out every now and then. And when you have an engaged audience, you can do stuff like this.

So we are seeing people get anywhere from $250 for a special segment for these are the much smaller audiences. When I say much smaller audiences, I'm talking about 1500 downloads or less. Okay, so these are real deals.These are not things that we are pie in the sky. These are.So if you, because most branded niche business development focused podcasts are smaller audiences by design, they're never going to be the 10 million or even the 10,000 downloads for that matter.So anywhere from 250, 500, 1000, $1500 an episode, those are okay numbers to ask if you are going to be getting in front, putting them in front of a very well targeted audience, if you're going to be putting them in other areas of your marketing strategy. So I think it's fair to say, like, is it 5,000, I don't know how, how many social media followers do you have? How, what's your SEO like?All of those kind of things. But in, but just starting out, you can just start asking for 500, 1500 dollars per episode.And if you release four times a month, that starts to add up. We also recommend that you don't have to sell, don't go keep asking for one episode at a time. Do a three month, do 13 episodes.Do you know, take the pressure off yourself.Like, try to get those packages to be like, if you're only going to get $250 an episode for a special segment, make that a 13 or a 26 week agreement so that you can start to, to build that revenue base up for yourself.

Produce your podcast.com is where you can find all things Tracy. And again, she does everything. Check it out again. Produce your podcast.com, traci Deforge, thanks so much for coming on the show.

Thank you, Dave.I'm so happy to be here and it was such a fun conversation and I look forward to continuing this conversation with you at a conference in the near future, I'm sure.

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Tracy. And speaking of conferences.

The school of podcasting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracy really is fun to be around. That's the other thing I like about Tracy. We always have a good time and a good laugh.The one thing I thought I would chime in on, and I heard this tip, and I was like, that's. That's a good one. That is when it. Cause we don't know what to charge. So here's the thing. If you haven't heard no yet, you're not charging enough.That's a simple rule. If you've. Every time you've thrown a number out and they go, oh, yeah, great, okay, there's probably money on the table.I remember when I interviewed Joe Salsihai from Stacking Benjamin's. That was one of his things, is he kept raising the price until he finally heard no, that was way back on episode 562.Back in the day, me and Joe Salsey High. So that's something to keep in mind.But I wanted to talk about this salesy thing because, look, right now, as we speak this Friday, I'm launching an actual campaign in my newsletter. Then this is why having a coach is a good thing, because he's like, what were the numbers on your last campaign? I'm like, what do you mean, campaign?I'm like, I send emails and stuff. He goes, no. Where you actually try to sell something. And I'm like, oh, and boy.So I'm actually trying to sell something in my newsletter starting this Friday, and I feel very salesy. And so I thought, let's talk about that. And like I said, probably one of the best books is from Zig Ziglar. It's called Secrets of Closing the Sale.And Zig Ziglar is a great example of how the power of storytelling is just huge because he. He has all this great information, but he's from Alabama and me, and he calls his wife the old redhead, and, you know, water pumping and doing that.He just. Everything's a story, and you can see it. He triggers the theater of the mind. And at the end, you're like, I can do that. So he said the.He emphasizes that you're selling is not about pushing your own gain.Like, I need to make my commission, but it's about helping others solve their problems and, you know, fulfill their needs, whatever it is they're trying to do. So this is where I mentioned last week, Justin Moore's book sponsor, Magnet.And by the way, Justin's coming on the show, so if you have a question for him, feel free to send it on over, just go to schoolofpodcasting.com contact and he said, really? Zig Ziglar, again, is the focus is on serving the customer and providing real value. He says when you do that, that salesy feeling disappears.And so this is where you have to really know who your audience is. And when you know you're solving their problem, then you know you're not selling them, you're serving them.You know, so shift your focus to the benefit that you're delivering to the customer. And if you're like, well, I'm not really sure.Well, then go make sure, find some people to take your course or to buy your product or whatever you're doing and then say, did that work for you? And if they go, oh, are you kidding me? That was amazing.Well, then, you know, you're helping them, you know, and by that, that means you're gonna have to experiment a little bit. So when you first start out, you're like, hey, try this. And they might go, ew, right? So see everything, not so much as a do or die.So many people, if I don't do this, then I'm gonna kill my podcast. Well, wait, hold on. That's feedback. When you try something and it doesn't work, that's feedback. And you go, oh, I probably shouldn't do that.And then you tweak it. And then again, as always, maintain a consistent schedule. Be consistent in your effort as well as the value of your content.But he really talks about the bottom line. For Zig, it's all about serving others and really believing your product or service is the best of the, you know, bunch, for lack of a better phrase.And then he does it. One of his key things is when you're talking to someone, ask questions instead of just telling them about your product.Because the more you understand their problem, the more you will see how your product or service or your podcast or whatever is going to solve that. And if you can see it solving it, then you're not selling them, you're helping them. So keep that in mind.Because the one thing that Tracy said that is so true, if you don't ask, you don't get. And the more you ask, you know, yes, at first, again, some people may say no, realize no, often is, not now.But you gotta ask and you kind of get used to it. I have had people ask me, why do I say, you know, hall of fame podcast award winning guy at the beginning.And that was from a coach that said, hey, how many people can say that? And I go, I don't know, probably when I got inducted, 10 or so, 15 maybe. I don't know. He's like, you need to say that at the beginning of every show.And I was kind of like, eh, you know, Keel's like, ooh, look. He's like, no, no, that's credibility. You know, it's something you can say. Not everybody can say it. You need to say it.So if you ever wonder why I always start off with award winning hall of fame podcast coach, and he goes, by the way, is that a fact? And I go, yeah, I got the statue sitting behind me. If you ever see me on video. He goes, well, then you're not lying.He goes, you're just, you know, pointing out that that's the truth. And I'm like, oh, yeah, I guess so. So whether it's imposter syndrome or just feeling awkward, anytime you do anything new, you're gonna feel awkward.Remember that as well. But you can overcome this, you know, kind of. I don't want to be salesy. There are ways to sell without being this Sunday. Sunday, Sunday. Right.So it doesn't have to be that either. But you can do it if you want to.Again, as always, since we're talking about making money today, I always have to remind people you don't have to make money with your podcast to be a valid podcast. You could do it just for fun.But for those of you who are, and I saw a lot of questions this week, so I was like, ah, it's time to bust out the Tracy interview. Well, you got some good tips. Quick Housekeeping. Back on episode 991, I was talking about how to podcast and stay married.And I totally forgot to mention school of podcasting members Greg and Linda Smith. They do a Show married in lovett.com. those two been married forever and they're sharing their tips on how to stay married and love it.I'll have a link to that out in the show notes. Next week on the show, I'll be interviewing David Hooper. He is the author of the book Big Podcast. He's the host of the show Build a Big Podcast.He's also part of music business radio. And Dave is now on satellite radio. And so we talk about what skills that he had as a podcast and as a broadcaster.How did that get him into satellite radio along with stuff like this?Success is a great deodorant in that if you've got some stuff on the outside that looks great, maybe you don't have to look at the inside and I realized that I wasn't living life, not really. You know, I was kind of paving over some stuff.And of course you can follow the show by going to schoolofpodcasting.com follow and never miss an episode. And if you need help with your podcast, I'm Dave Jackson. I help podcasters. It's what I do and I would love to see what we can do together.Go over to schoolofpodcasting.com join and use the coupon code listener. That's L I S S T E N E R when you sign up for either a monthly, quarterly or yearly subscription.And that does come with a 30 day money back guarantee along with step by step courses, unlimited coaching and one of the best podcast communities on the Internet. This in a while. Currently using a rode podmic USB into a rodecaster duo into Hindenburg journalists. My primary plugin is the chef's Omni channel.I love that thing and I am hosted. This show is hosted on Captivate. If you need a website check out PodPage. And our host is Dave Jackson. Our producer is Dave Jackson.Our editor is Dave Jackson. Our music music consultant is Dave Jackson. The graphic designer is Dave Jackson. What else?Assistant to the cousin of the brother of storyboarding is Dave Jackson. Thanks for tuning in. Until next week. Take care. God bless. Class is dismissed.